Chapter 7...Is Anyone Out There???

So, like I said, chapter 6 is my favorite chapter. But as I continue to truly read Romans, I find that I like it all. Chapter 7 is very interesting in its comparison of the old law dying and giving way to the new law to a wife losing her husband and being free to marry another. Some other things I find interesting are in v. 7, it says that "I (Paul) would not have known sin except through the law". So, giving rules and regulations made him see that things he was doing were wrong. And it was necessary to know he was sinning to realize that he needed Christ and His salvation. So the old law is important in New Testament Christianity. And then there are verses 14 through the end of the chapter. Wow. I feel the same way. I want to do good, but for many reasons, some that I understand and others that I don't, it just doesn't always happen. And that's frustrating. But it is comforting to know that Paul had the same struggle between his spiritual self and his carnal self.

So we've been slacking, so lets pick this back up!!

The Rest of Chapter 6...Finally

Okay, so I can make lots of excuses why it has taken me so long to do this, but the fact is...I'm lazy. So, here we go...

15: "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" We are no longer bound to the old Mosaical law, something I'm sure that these people were having a hard time understanding. I think it's much easier for us to understand, and I think that sometimes we let things get out of control. We figure God's grace has us covered, so we tend to let ourselves fall into sin and just ask forgiveness later. Paul tells us we can't do that, just because we are under grace doesn't mean we should go on sinning, which leads us into the following verses.

16-20: If we sin, we are slaves to sin because that is what we are obeying, and sin leads to death (Romans 6:23). If we are to be saved and slaves to righteousness, we have to be obedient to God, to obey Him from the heart "the doctrine which you were delivered" my interpretation: The Gospel.

21-23: We are set free from sin by our obedience to the Gospel. We must be baptized (that's what the first part of Romans 6 says). We are slaves of God and must present ourselves as such. You do this through obedience, and the fruits of your actions should demonstrate who you are obedient to, either God, or sin. Sin leads to death, God leads to eternal life. I choose God.

Romans 6 is one of my favorite because I remember when I was first studying the Bible, this was the chapter that I read that made me understand what I needed to do to be saved.

Quit?

Have we quit? Or is it just me? I read God's word 2 days this week. Please please no applause. So what? Yeah, that's pathetic but I guess that's what I wanted. You know, as soon as you want to give up on working on your Christianity, you get just that. It's one of the easiest things you can do. Hey, I'm doing it right now. It is a battle. Honestly it's like me hanging on monkey bars...you just know that I won't last long at all. So be happy with it? No. I'm ashamed. It's ridiculous that I make such an embarrassing confession to y'all. How am I helping y'all? I need the help!

So what did I put before God's word. What was my desire each time I could have studied? Mine was browsing the internet & watching TV. I signed my ticket huh! I could have missed a 30 minute show once a day...but I did not. I must do different. I must change. I gained in what I "wanted" but lost in what I needed. It shows too....just ask Amy. I'm not the Christian she signed up to live with when I give God my scraps.

I am so proud of myself when I study. It makes me feel good and I end up thinking about God's message at various times throughout the day. When I don't read, I end up thinking about everything opposite of God's word.

So tomorrow is Sunday and I look to start anew. Join me. If you don't, I probably will have a tough time.

Today I am Jorge...Longwinded

Okay, I know, it's been a while. I can make all sorts of excuses for why I've not been studying, but the truth is, I just haven't wanted to. I've been struggling with my Christianity. I've been struggling with bible study just because I don't want to do it. In college it was easy because everything we did was about church. Now there are so many other things to think about and I don't make God a priority. In class we are talking about family and what parents do for their kids, and this all bugs me because I've not really had an example of how to raise a Christian kid. I grew up thinking only those "baptist people" didn't believe in evolution and that religious people were kinda weird and cult-like. I still have a lot of those skeptical and doubting attitudes that creep in. And kids know if you're not serious and sincere about your Christianity, they know if your just going through the motions, and they grow up to do the same. Anyways, all this gets me down sometimes and then I read Romans 6.
Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Because I have been baptized, my old self, the doubting one who thought religious people were weird and in a cult, is dead and gone. I am a new person. It is hard to realize that all the time, the old self creeps back in. But because Jesus died and was raised, we too can do that. And, according to these few verses, the way we do that is through baptism. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where there is another way given to bury your sin and be freed from sin and be united with Him in His resurrection. I love these verses because no matter what our past is, when we are baptized it is done away with. This doesn't mean we can continue in sin, but as verses 11-14 say we are now offering ourselves to God, and since we are dead to sin, why would we want to continue in it?

Sorry my interpretation of all this is a little personal, and only partial. I will get to the rest of the chapter soon I hope!

Waiting on Ch 6

Not really, Jennifer. I just didn't know if you saw my comment that said that since your favorite chapter is 6 then I shall withhold my comments until you post on the chapter.

Romans 5...

Well, Jorge pretty much hit it all. But I do have a few things to add. I think that in verse 12 talking about sin and death, it does mean spiritual death as well as physical death. Because wasn't Adam separated from God, kicked out of the Garden?

I know this is a controversial issue, but I would like to know your thoughts. Verse 5...because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Who is the us? Does this apply to us today, or just the us (apostles, maybe???) that Paul is speaking of?

One of my favorite parts of this chapter is verse 6: For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. See also Galatians 4:4 - a verse I remember from studying with Max Moore. I think it is so cool that all this happened at the right time. We think about the past and the future, and just to know that God knows what's going on and has a plan and that we are part of it is awesome.

On to Chapter 6...my favorite!

Thanks Jorge

Thanks for getting us going again. My computer has been out of commission but is working now and I will be blogging my thoughts on ch. 5. Should we have started with a book other than Romans??

James 2 - 2nd half

The second half of James 2 reads so similar to what we have been reading in Romans. James was written earlier and has more of a basic idea. Galatians also is an early book and goes a little deeper. Then Romans jumps all in. This kind of proves how difficult it was for early converts to understand what all encompassed "faith".

Romans 5 - NIV

1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Wouldn’t you say that the peace we get is due to the fact that we are no longer enemies to God? We were previously nowhere near just. Now that relationship is friendly.

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

I think it is crazy to think that Jesus went all in when there was no sign of us getting better. It’s like buying into the stock market at the very bottom. Sure you are smart after the market goes up but you are so risky at that time. Jesus saw promise in us when we didn’t even give him the inkling that we would become better. He took a big chance on us.

10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Reconciliation is a big deal. Think of how many family members won’t talk to each other anymore due to disagreements or mistreatments. For them to reconcile would seem like a miracle at times. Well, God used Jesus’ sacrifice to reconcile what never before could be brought together, God and sinful man.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Do you think “death” here is also meaning spiritual death which is “separation from God”?

13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Do y’all agree that this is reflecting back to Romans 2?

16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

“The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation” & “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men” – I think some people use this to prove Original Sin. I disagree. Adam’s sin did not condemn someone who had not sinned yet. If so, babies would be sinful. Adam’s sin opened the door for sin to REIGN. With sin being in existence, each man then chose to fall prey to temptation and sin. The nature of man is to satisfy his desires. These desires play into temptation and therefore each man decides to continue the influence of sin. I have to “do something” in order for sin to condemn me.

“The judgment followed one sin” vs ” but the gift followed many trespasses” – The one initial sin was powerful because it began a cycle that would permeate mankind to condemn them. Jesus’ sacrifice was so powerful that it trumped countless of those same condemning sins to provide justification.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

We all know that Jesus saved the world through his sacrifice even though in reality many of the world will not be saved. Why? Because in the same manner that sin leaves the door open for death to reign, Jesus’ sacrifice leaves the door open for life to reign. How does death reign? By me choosing to sin and acting on it. How does life reign? By me choosing Christ and acting on it (Steps of Salvation & Christian living). Sin & Jesus each created a destiny for me; I had to choose which I would align with.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

If you have no law, you have no trespasses. The law was added so man could clearly see they were evil. The law identified evil.

But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I think this just states that grace trumps sin of any amount. Grace can always one-up sin. Not that we should test the effectiveness of grace but that we realize that even if we are the worst sinners that ever stepped on Earth, God’s grace reaches us!

Romans 5:14 "type"?

So this verse really was hard for me to understand because it said "Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." So the Him give it away that it is comparing Adam to Jesus but I was thinking "why would Paul say Adam was similar to Jesus or that Jesus was the next generation of Adam." I didn't get it until I went to my old trusty friend "webster". He says type is:

1 a: a person or thing (as in the Old Testament) believed to foreshadow another (as in the New Testament) b: one having qualities of a higher category : model c: a lower taxonomic category selected as a standard of reference for a higher category ; also : a specimen or series of specimens on which a taxonomic species or subspecies is actually based

It blew my mind that it was talking about the Bible in the first definition, pretty cool. Then it clarifies to me that Paul is not saying Adam & Christ are alike. Paul is saying that Christ is the "higher category". Now I understand why some versions say Adam was the "first man" and Christ was the "second man" in 1 Corinthians 15:45. Adam was the first generation. Through his succombing to temptation he set a presidence for all mankind to succomb to temptations. Christ is the second generation and also the last. Through his abstenance from temptation, he set a presidence for all mankind to elevate themselves through Him above all temptations.

A little off the topic...

So in our bible class last night we came across an interesting discussion… or at least I thought the response was interesting.

We are studying the pastoral letters to Timothy and Titus and we are in 1 Timothy 2:8 where it says: “I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.” The instruction seems rather simple and we headed off on this path of people singing and praying… with their hands in the air. At first it was at face value, but then the conversation went to more opinion and feel that it was not ok to do this because it is for show. Of all of the passages that we have gray matter on, this seems pretty black and white. I didn’t have a problem until I received the answer to this question: “The passage is pretty direct here, so what problem do we have with raising hands?” The reply for the most part: “It makes me uncomfortable.” I followed with another question: “What about it makes you so uncomfortable?” The reply: “ We don’t know if it is sincere.”

Issue 1: Is the passage literal?

We found a reference back to an old testament passage in Psalm 24:2 and James 4:8 discussing clean hands as being associated with the heart.

Issue 2: Are we really more uncomfortable about raising hands in song and prayer than the sinner who does not know salvation.

We work with people daily that don’t know God and we seem pretty comfortable with that. Really… are we splitting hairs here? Focused on the right things?

Issue 3: Doesn’t this take a judgment call?

To determine if someone is sincere, we would need to know their heart which really, only God knows unless we really are close in relationship to the person lifting hands. Key work above being judge. I have plenty to be concerned with rather than judging someone’s intent of lifting their hands toward the ceiling.

My reasoning: purely tradition. Every church family I have been associated with before college never made a point to practice song or prayer in this manner, so I never learned it as a function.

Question

Romans 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

When it says Abraham believed God, in what sense is the word “believed” used? What all went into Abraham "believing." How do we know he believed?

Romans Chapter 4 NIV - my take

4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

We are saved by works so then it is God’s obligation to give us what is ours, Heaven. Does that seem right? If we can earn Heaven, then why are we called redeemed or saved? If we earn it, no one saved us, we saved ourselves. If we earned it, there is no “gift” involved; there is no “grace” involved.

6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

What did you do to get your sins forgiven? What part of the forgiveness process were you responsible for producing? None. You may think that immersion is a work but even before you committed to God through immersion, all things had been made ready for “anyone that would submit to Jesus’ allegiance or leadership”. He had done all the prep work, all the cooking, all the setting, and you just had to partake. Immersion is not an active process performed BY you. You “allow” yourself to be immersed as part of the process Jesus mandates for forgiveness. Immersion is a passive process performed UPON you. You are yielding to Him. Physically were are submerged by someone else and do not submerge ourselves.

10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

Receiving righteousness before circumcision was a sign to the Jews that exclusivity to salvation would not exist. It was also a sign that the Jewish law would not be the ultimate source of God’s desires; the source would be Jesus and the words left for us by his appointed followers.

12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

“Walk in the footsteps of the faith” – Having faith is not just believing in something. It is believing in something that motivates you to act a certain way that adheres to the belief/idea.

13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,

If you were a Jew that lived by the law, you would think salvation would be a right, just as an heir has rights to his father’s possessions. If so, then God’s promise is not really a promise or gift, it’s an obligation.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring

Our “walking in the footsteps of the faith” has been blessed by God to give us something we did not deserve. As long as our faith is one that is “walking”, the promise (which is conditional on us finding & keeping faith) is guaranteed to be applicable to us.

25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Our sins brought forth the need for Jesus’ death. Our faith in the resurrection of the true Messiah & Christ brings forth our gift of justification before God. A divine plan the devil would have never expected.

Chapter 4...5 By End of the Week

Okay, Romans is starting to come together for me. This whole book so far (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) seems like Paul is telling the Jews, "You aren't the only ones who've got a shot at Heaven". They've thought this whole time they were the heirs because of their circumcision and following the Law, and that was what was due them (Romans 4:4-5). But Paul says that Abraham was counted righteous when he wasn't circumcised because he had faith, and that the circumcision as a seal of the righteousness of his faith. Kinda like "I will show you my faith by my works". So, even if we do a ton of good deeds, tons of works-like many of the Jews were doing-works of the Law-if we don't have faith it doesn't matter. Let me know what you think and if I'm missing out on something. I would like for us to get through chapters 4 and 5 by the end of this week!

Rebellion

Or laziness, whatever you want to call it. I have rebelled against everything I'm supposed to be doing this past week...eating healthy, working out, reading my bible, blogging about it, cleaning and cooking...EVERYTHING! This week will be bette. I've read chapter 4 and will blog about it today. It's all starting to come together for me.

March 1 through March 7 - Days read

I read 5 of 7 days this week. Don't give me the half day nonsense. Falling asleep after reading a few sentences is not enough substance. Where's the beef!

3.2 days read on average last week

Don't really have to say much here. Considering we probably read on Sundays & Wednesdays by default, that means we dedicated time to read for only 1.2 days of 5 available days. I've already missed 2 days this week. Let's hang in there.

Submit your total days read last week

I read 5 days.

Romans 3

Okay, it's time to get rolling.  Here's my take on parts of chapter 3...

V. 1-4:  When I first read this, I thought of people who are raised in the Church.  When he says "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?

 ²Great in every respect. First of all, that ^{A)" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: 0.5em; ">(A)}they were entrusted with the ^{B)" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: 0.5em; ">(B)}oracles of God." it reminded me of people raised in the Church are taught God's word and that way of life from their birth, and for the most part it is just how things are for them.  People who aren't raised in the Church often don't have this background.

 ³What then? If ^{C)" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: 0.5em; ">(C)}some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

 ⁴^{D)" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: 0.5em; ">(D)}May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found ^{E)" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: 0.5em; ">(E)}a liar, as it is written,
         "^{F)" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: 0.5em; ">(F)}THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
         AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

Loved verses 3-4.  Even if we aren't faithful in God, or have no faith in Him, He is still faithful.  Amazing.

V. 5-20:  Everyone is sinful, whether you go to church, are a Christian, non-Christian, whatever.  And we should remember that and not judge others who are of a different religion as being "more sinful".  We are all sinful.

V. 21-31:  God is everyone's God.  There is one God, and he is there for everyone in the world.  Jesus was given to die for everyone in the world and save us all.  We must have faith, not just works.  Paul has been talking (I think) in the previous chapters and this one about how Jews can follow the law and do all the work, but have no faith.  We must have faith, it must start in our hearts, and our works should show what is in our hearts.

It is amazing that God is there for us all, even for those who don't believe.  I don't think (based on what I've read) he ever writes anyone off...and neither should we.  

What advantage?

Romans 3:1-18 My personalization & role playing of these scriptures:

Why would Paul rhetorically ask what advantage there was in being a Jew or even being circumcised? Why would a Jew ask "so what's my advantage in being a Jew" considering what was said at the end of chapter 2?

So some people have been trying to push the idea that "if you are not real faithful, then God's not faithful." We can't trust God when we see "God-followers" that are failing. Is that a correct statement?

Another arguement people were pushing was "hey, if I don't do right, then I create a large contrast to show how God does do things right. Since my misbehavior makes you notice how right God is, I should be mad at God for punishing my wrong, correct? "Let us do evil that good may result."

So, I'm not a Jew and I don't come up with those stupid ideas thinking that if I do bad, I prove God is good. I should think a lot about myself because I'm not like them, right? Nope! Verses 9-18 say "we", non-Jews, are on par with Jews in the truth that we are "unrighteous by our own merit".

Romans 3

I've read chapter three (several times) and will comment more about it tomorrow.  I get so frustrated because I read and read and read and comprehend NOTHING!!!!!

0

That is the number of days that I have sat down this week to study my Bible. I am truly embarrassed to admit that I don't even take time to read God's word.

Daily Bible Reading

We want to read everyday. So lets keep track of how many days this coming week we read God's word. It does not have to be a bunch. It just has to be more than just flipping a coin or opening up somewhere. The goal is reading 7 days of course. We're studying Romans so rereading that is just fine. Keep track okay! Next Sunday we can report our numbers. Have a great week.

Hi Yall!! I'm new to this one, but I'm glad to be here. ----Jennifer your question. . . . . worship isn't about us. It is only about God. The reason that we go and do it together is because we are required to do so. The Bible tells us in Hebrews 10:19-25. We have been washed (baptized into Christ ---we make that decision when we are ready to do so for the remission of our sins) so we've got to come together in love and good deeds so that we can ENCOURAGE one another. Again, worship is not about us!! It's about what we can do for God, how we can praise him, and how we can build others up (by our presence, song, words, actions, and sincerity). It is not about us! It's only about GOD!

If there is a church that's not following the Bible's firm and unwavering guidelines. . . then either correct it ---in love. Or, get the heck outta Dodge. Shaking the dust off of your feet. Luke 9. . .when Jesus sent out his disciples to work with the people.

It really gets under my skin sometimes when people think that this group has more fun or this group does this. .. . or this group sings better. . . . SO what!!! Do we think for 1 minute that this will be the thing that God looks for and asks for?

Who makes the rules? I don't. . . but I know who does. And I will follow them to get to where I need to go. What about the rest of us?

Sidetracked

If Jorge's too long winded then I get side tracked too much.  I appreciate your long-windedness, Jorge.  

So, here is my sidetracked question...Is it okay to not go to a church just because you don't like it?  Micah and I have been to several that were good churches, but we decided not to worship there just because we didn't like it there.  Is that okay?  Also, what if you go to a church, agree with most things that are taught, but not everything.  Should you stay worshipping there or should you leave?  We don't have any of these problems at the church we are currently at, but we have had them in the past and know people who have had some of these same problems.  We are talking about unity in our Wednesday night class, so that has brought up some of these questions amongst Micah and I.  Your thoughts are appreciated.  

I'm too long-winded?

Maybe I just don't mind typing it all out...

Romans Chapter 2 Part 2

I understand the NIV easier for this second half.

V 24 is a powerful verse. Verses 17-23 go into detail comparing your pride to your actions and seeing if you are genuine. The hypocrisy was so bad that even the “pagan” Gentiles saw how “vile” the Jews actually were. The Gentiles were like “why the heck would I want to be a Jew in faith and follow God? Obviously, God isn’t benefiting those guys. What the heck are they learning in that Mosaic Law that I’m really missing out on? I am actually doing better than them without God.” In fact, the Jews were the best case against Judaism. Likewise, today, many have said that the best case against Christianity is Christians! We are in a greenhouse being evaluated at all times. The crazy thing is that many times it is the ungodly that are evaluating us and when they see us in the wrong, they discount God’s power & wisdom. Just listen to what is said about Christians on TV. People that have no clue about scripture are judging us & God.

V 25 If you go back and read about when circumcision started…not when Moses came around…but before when God found favor with Abraham, we read in Genesis 17 that this circumcision was a physical representation of a emotional commitment. You were stating that “God is my Lord; he is who I answer to.” You were telling others that this was an enduring commitment until death. The amazing thing is that parents would dedicate their children to God via circumcision but the rest was up to the kid. So Paul says, “so what!” to being circumcised (pledged to God) if you are sinning & acting like you aren’t circumcised (pledged to God). As verse 26 says, you can point to your circumcised body but will not be regarded as circumcised because there is no obeying. Incredibly the guy who isn’t circumcised but does what is right (the Gentile from verse 14 who obeys instinctively) will condemn you (not as in them being God but as in them being used as the standard to measure you up against).

How furious would a Jew be that a Gentile would be their standard?

V 28 “A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.”

If you read Genesis 17 and pieces of chapters 18-21, you will see that these promises God was making Abraham were based on a condition. Many of God’s promises are conditional. Conditional on us doing our part! Most definitely, circumcision was a physical action initiated by an emotional/mental response. Abraham had to do a gut check and accept that God would lead him in every aspect of his life. That is what God was demanding via circumcision.

V 29 "No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God."

Your heart has to be in to it. Your parents may have devoted you to God but as you grew up, you had to come to grips with the reality that it was up to you to fulfill the pact created with God. Now how do we tell whether the devotion is really there and growing…we see the fruit. Just like James says that out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks, out of the overflow of the heart, you obey. This devout person will be satisfied if his God is happy with him and will be able to battle on through even though the rest of the world ridicules him.

Oh and although circumcision was part of the Law of Moses, it did not originate there. It originated with Abraham, hundreds of years before. A pact between God and his descendants.

Now in all this talk of circumcision, replace the word circumcision with immersion, Jew with Christian, Gentile with unbeliever and see if that isn’t a hard pill to swallow. Here we are pointing to our immersion but Paul is saying there better be some hard proof that your heart is in it. Like Brother Wilkey says, there has to be a line when you broke from the pack and said God is first for me, everyone else is last.

When did you cross the line?

I believe whole-heartedly that I and other New Testament Christians crossed the line when I let myself be immersed into Christ’s death and was brought up into the resurrection of Christ.

Romans Chapter 2 Part 1 (sorry)

V3 “you, a mere man, pass judgment…think you will escape God’s judgment” NIV

This clearly mocks us in our attempts to play God and act like our opinion can actually sentence someone to punishment

V4 “Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?” NASB

I think Paul is telling us that we should not take away value from God’s kindness, tolerance, & patience. We need to remember that we did evil also but that God was able to bring us to repentance. The same could happen to the one whom you are judging. If you are wanting to be judge & the one who sentences, then you are writing off someone as “going to hell” even though God has not yet stopped giving them chances to change. IS THIS WHAT Y’ALL THINK?

V6-8 These verses express the same idea as judging a tree by its fruit and he who loves his life will lose it and he who hates his life will gain eternal life. God is just and since he does not show favoritism (v11), he will reward those who showed him love (if you love me, follow my commandments) and condemn those who demonstrated hate towards God by not following his commandments. That is His sole standard measuring stick for each of us. Of course, we have 1 Jn 1:7-10 to help us when we, Christians, are faithful but slip up. Also, v7 states “seek glory, honor & immortality” while v8 states “self-seeking & who reject the truth & follow evil”. This talks about our “motives” for our actions.

V 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

This is the NASB version. The use of “without” I think coincides with the talk about the Gentiles in v 14 “who do not have the Law.” Now v 12 talks about someone who Sins. It seems as though there is some benefit to being a sinner that had the Law. I am thinking maybe the benefit is the use of sacrifices to atone for sins. I am not sure but I would think that would be an advantage over someone that has no guidance as to what to do once they sin. Although, if someone (without the Law) recognizes that they sin, guilt could lead them to ask for forgiveness. I have no clue how this would be handled by God since the Law actually helps understand that repentance is necessary & that sacrifices are a means to regain fellowship with God. It seems like v 14-15 help fill in the gaps on the process.

v 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

This is talking about the Jewish law and how you had to “do” what it said to be counted justified. This same type of idea is used by James chapter 1 verse 20 or 21. Don’t be just a hearer of the word, be a doer. There James was referring to the Christian law. This is such a challenge for people because it feels so great to think that we can just hear and believe, to the extent that we make a pledge to God, and that God will forgive. The OT & NT state that “Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” I agree with that. We just need to understand that the word “believe” in that sentence has the meaning of “hearing, believing, & acting on it.” That is another discussion that we will have to tackle sometime, the difference between believe and believe. The “believers” that will go to heaven are the ones that “hear, believe, & act on it”. The “act on it” includes repentance, public confession, immersion, & proving to God that those things have initiated a change in you.

v 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Here is how I think those who did not have the Mosaic Law in the past & even those who do not have the Christian Law now will be judged. They will be judged by how closely they followed God’s desire using their own natural intuition. Most humans without “religionizing” them know that you should not mess with another man or woman who is married, stealing is wrong, killing is wrong, insulting others is wrong, sexual assault is wrong, not sharing is not cool, hard work is good, being honest is good, respecting authority is good, life is precious, children are innocent treasures, etc. We see this in even the most rudimentary of tribes on the National Geographic channel.

When you wonder about all the billions of people that were not of the people of Israel, or were nowhere near Israel to hear about God and maybe become a proselyte, or who today still haven’t heard of Jesus in the slightest, you ask what will happen to them. How will they be judged? I believe (from Romans 2) they will be judged with how closely their conscience aligned with God’s. The standard will be the level of moral excellence that they know of and how closely they were to that standard. Their “Law” is on their hearts. Their conscience knows when they sinned or did well. That conscience will be judged by God through Christ Jesus. This is definitely an interesting subject that we of course do not fall under but those who do not have availability of the Bible do fall under.

I will get to the rest of the chapter soon.

Read Mark 7:24-30. Think of "children" as the Jews and "dogs" as the Gentiles. I believe Jesus was stating that Jews still had first crack at the promise of a Savior. Gentiles were second in line because he knew the Jews would reject Jesus. (to the Jew first, then the Gentile) What do you think?

Amy is in?

I think I've got Amy set up on this blog. We'll see.

My Take on Chapter 2

Okay, we're slacking off here, at least I am.  It's taken almost three weeks to read two chapters!  Not that great.  I am reading the chapters over and over and over, but still...

Anyways, here is my take on chapter 2.  I'm kinda a big picture person, so let me know if I'm missing out on something or if I'm misunderstanding something!

All the judgement stuff...between what I've read and what Jorge has put up here, my understanding is that we are going to make judgements, or draw conclusions, about people based on their actions.  We have to remember, though, that whatever standard we hold others to, however harshly we judge them, we will also be judged.  And it is not for us to condemn others because of their actions, only God can do that.  

Our actions are very important.  They give the world an insight into our hearts.  We can't teach one thing and do another, or judge people for something while we ourselves are doing it.  In verses 25 and following, Paul says that a Jew is not necessarily just someone who is circumsized, but those who are a Jew inwardly in their hearts.   I think he is trying to tell people that you don't have to be a Jew to inherit Heaven, anyone can who follows God's laws and does His will and does so because that is what God wants, not to impress men.

My question for this chapter:  He always says, "to the Jew first and also to the Greek" then later he says that you are not necessarily a "Jew" because the world views you as one.  Is there a connection between these two things?  Is he being literal with the "Jew first and also to the Greek" or is he being figurative?  Don't know if my question makes any sense.

I look forward to seeing your takes on chapter 2.  Amy, are you still unable to get on the blog?   

News from the Philippines

Yesterday I received The Messenger from Cebu City, Philippines. The Messenger is published bi-monthly by missionaries of the Bible Study Center (www.BibleStudyCenter.net). We know the missionaries as Barry & Shari Murrell, Jon & Gena Murrell, and Clint & Rachael Robinstein. I was so excited to read about all their great work. Their family is continuing to grow. Clint & Rachael just had a baby boy, Andrew, on January 16th. Jon & Gina are expecting a baby sometime soon. The Murrell's will be in the states March 16 to June 16th. I would love to see them while they are in the states. Anyway, I just thought you all would like to check out the website. They have free material and some great studies. It may be fun to complete one of their studies. Here are a few questions they had in their newsletter.

1. How many "wise men" went to visit baby Jesus when he was born in Jerusalem?
a. we are not told
b. none
c. three

2. Which member of the Apostle Peter's family was healed by Jesus?
a. his wife
b. his sister
c. his mother-in-law

3. Which one of the first four books of the New Testament (Gospels) does not record any of the PARABLES of Jesus?
a. Matthew
b. John
c. Luke

4. In the Old Testament, who was the prophet whose donkey talked to him?
a. Shrek
b. Samuel
c. Balaam

5. According to the New Testament, what is the root of all evil?
a. Money
b. The lack of Money
c. The love of Money

They will post the answers in their next letter. Post your answers. I only knew one off the top of my head. I will post my answers when I get them all looked up.

So how now with Chapter 2?

Do the scriptures I gave below help you understand Chapter 2 better?

What I would like all of us to do.

So below, I've listed lots of examples that I think can help us wrap our minds around what I think are the various meanings of the words judge & judgment. Please provide comments to what you think the meaning is for each passage. This discussion is a good one, one that will definitely help us clear doubt.

Judge the Tree

Matthew 7:15-20
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Pointing the finger

1 Corinthians 5:9-13

9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;

10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

From Romans

Romans 14:1-15
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;

8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

Again

Acts 16:14-15
14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

15And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

And more judging

John 3:17-19
17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

How about here?

John 6:36 -38

36"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

38"Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure--pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."

What does Judging mean here?

Matt 7:1-5
1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?

5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Judgement

Okay, so I want to discuss verses 1-16 of Romans 2.  I have read this several times, and I get bogged down by the first few verses and all the judgement stuff.  So, what I need to know is:  what is judgement?  What does it mean to judge someone else?  I'm pretty sure I'm judgemental of others, but it is a hard concept for me to understand because it seems to me that so many other Christians are judgemental, also (I know that's an excuse, and probably a judgmental statement, too).  I guess I don't have an example of someone who doesn't judge others, or maybe I do, I just don't know it.  So, if someone could tell me what it means to judge others, I think that will help me understand this chapter.

Romans 2

I am loving seeing what everyone is writing.  It helps me so much because different people bring out different things.  I often read and don't comprehend much...that's where I'm at with Romans 2.  I've read it twice, and I don't know what I've read yet.  I'm going to tackle it again today.  

Romans 1

17 In it (the Gospel) the righteousness of God is being disclosed by faith into faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

This is the McCord version. I like the use of the word "into".

Romans 1

4 who was declared (H)the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

What really identified Jesus as the Son of God? The fact that he not only told people he could rise from death, like so many other Messiah-wanna-bes during those time, he actually rose to live on Earth for 40 days & then never died again (unlike say, Lazarus) as He went to Heaven with God. The miracles were nice but you have to know that each of those 12 Apostles along with other disciples were waiting to authenticate Jesus as Savior & Messiah with his conquering over death. He was the real deal.


6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Want a purpose driven life? You are called to be “of Jesus Christ”. If you are a Christian, you should not be ever depressed about your life because you have a Way about your life, Jesus. We are not the last kid picked for kickball. We are the captains picked to make the teams. God does not choose talented people. God gives talent to those He chooses.

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

This should tell us a lot about the Christians in Rome. They didn’t even yet have the presence of direct teaching from the Apostles but yet they were growing strong off of the evangelism that undoubtedly spread to Rome. This tells me that the Christians that evangelized in Rome were passionate themselves and that it rubbed off on those new Christians. So much so, that regions from far away knew of how great their “working” faith was.


11For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established;
11Porque anhelo veros para impartiros algún don espiritual, a fin de que seáis confirmados;

Spanish does a good job of using the word “confirmed” instead of “established”
How did spiritual gifts confirm them? I think in the same way that the Apostles words were confirmed to be from Christ (Mark 16:14-20). As I mentioned before, they had not received direct teaching from Apostles so in order for them to be able to know that they were following sound teaching, a gift of some sort would be given to them. We have no clue what it would be.


16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

THIS ATTITUDE SHOULD BE OUR ATTITUDE!
Guys, why did Paul get to accomplish so much with so many & we’re still struggling to keep ourselves in line? Why did Paul face such strict punishment and rebuke and yet never stop teaching? Why did he stand up to the elite in government (Felix & Agrippa) & the society (idol makers in Ephesus)? How could someone reject a promising career in Judaism to be trashed by his own people?

Paul was not ashamed of the gospel! He knew what it was like to “know whole-heartedly” that you are right with God (locking up Christians & holding the coats of those who stoned Stephen) and be oh so wrong. When Jesus appeared to him on that road to Damascus, Saul’s mind must have gone mad. Everything Jesus told him was the opposite of what Saul thought & lived. Then Jesus, explaining all about his life, death, resurrection, and ascension (the four parts of the Gospel), gave this low life a chance at the elite life of a Christian. The life that had God’s approval. The life that really meant you could live forever. The life that proved that what is here on Earth ain’t nothing compared to what is with God. The life that could make you lose everything here on Earth and know that the best is yet to come. After those 3 days of blindness, there was no doubt in Saul’s mind that he wanted to be immersed to start his life with Christ.

Do you want to see God working? Use his saving power. What’s his saving power? It is the Gospel. Paul witnessed countless times how people’s lives changed just from him teaching them & them accepting the Gospel. You have to understand that seeing this over and over fed on itself to the extent that there was no doubt that the Gospel was life changing. That first step to teaching someone the Gospel is not a big one but is gigantic if you never lift your foot. I’m there with y’all.

Do you see God’s power in Saul’s transformation to Paul? Paul “sold all out” to Christ. Have you? In so many ways, I have. In some important ways, I have not. My wife pushes me to “sell out” in different ways than I am accustomed. I have to put down myself and quit pushing back to give room for her exhortation to grow.

What does the creation of this blog stem from? Our desire to have this attitude. Our desire to be the sweet smelling aroma that God richly loves. Our desire to honestly and undoubtedly be able to swear to Jesus that we love him more than our spouse, family, friends, job, school, & wealth.

Oh, and why first to the Jew? Because God kept his word in that salvation would come to his people before all others. He so wished they had accepted Jesus. They had their shot and they blew it. Now, God’s chosen people are no longer Israel but the Christian people (Galatians Ch 4 Hagar/Sarah). We are the children of promise who have been adopted but given full rights of sonship along with Jesus.


24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

“God gave them over”. God didn’t force them. God let the world do as they wanted in their own heart to do. The evil did not come from God. The evil was man’s own desires. Desires that brought no exaltation to themselves…only dishonor.

17Porque en el evangelio la justicia de Dios se revela por fe y para fe; como está escrito: MAS EL JUSTO POR LA FE VIVIRA.

Spanish probably does a better job of translating. “For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is BY FAITH & FOR (purpose of creating) FAITH, just as it is written:…”

I was just waiting on my invitation to get all this out.

Let's keep it up.

I'm in!

Get ready for my stuff! Now I know this is going to come as a shocker to you all but I actually found more value in the 1st half. The 2nd half of chapter 1 is good too but I think the 1st part has some really good thoughts.

I'm Reading....I really am!

Just wanted to let you all know that I have been making time to actually sit down and read. I promise to have a few comments and questions to post tomorrow. Thanks for keeping me accountable.
Page

I agree with Amber, the second part of the first chapter is pretty interesting.  I guess what struck me was verse 20, that lets us know that it is evident that God is real, just by seeing what He has made.

20For ^(AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, ^(AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

The other thing I thought was interesting was verse 22 through the end of the chapter.  

22^(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,

 23and ^(AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and ^[d]crawling creatures.

 24Therefore ^(AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be^(AS)dishonored among them.

 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a ^(AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,^(AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.

It continues to say all the bad things that are going on.  This interested me because it sounds so similar to what is going on in our world today.  People today are always saying how things are so bad right now and it is such a tough world to live in.  While I don't disagree with that, it has been that way forever...these verses tell us things and people were bad back then, too.  Many people don't feel the Bible is applicable in today's world, or that parts are and parts aren't.  When I read Romans 1, I see that things weren't all that different back then, and that makes me feel that the Bible and its teachings are just as applicable today as they were then.  

Romans 1:18 - 32

I was much more intrigued by the later half of Romans 1 than the first half. Although the first half presents a number of convictions that I have not yet fully explored.

I did my reading through a site called www.biblegateway.com. It allows you to read the same passage in almost every translation known to man. I find that reading the same passage in several different translations brings the meaning to life for me. The verse that really hits home for me is the last verse of the chapter.

Romans 1:32 (Amplified Bible)
Though they are fully aware of God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.

The verses before this one describe how our sin starts small, we know God exists, but we do not praise him, we don't thank him. We know God is the creator but we worship the creation not the creator. The more we ignore God the worse our sin (life) becomes. We fall deeper and deeper into a routine that doesn't acknowledge God.

Romans 1:28 - 29 (Amplified Bible)
And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome, 29Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness..

The worst of these things is that we "know better", we are "fully aware of God." I think my challenge is more in "considering him worth the knowing" and doing something about it. Do I strive to know him more intimately, or fully?

I think this blog will be a great way to hear the struggles of others. To encourage one another in our faith. Thanks for setting it up and for inviting me to be a part of it!

Disciple Question

Jorge said...

What is the difference between an apostle and a disciple?

Apostle was a disciple that was chosen for a few reasons. 
Acts 1:21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

This alone eliminates anybody now-a-days claiming to be an Apostle.

Apostles were like the Secretary of State (Hillary). They go and represent President Obama (hehe). Obama can give these representatives the authority to speak for him. When the Apostle speaks, Jesus is approving & in essence speaking. 

Disciple is just a follower, like you & me. We follow Jesus' commands as he directly gave them and as he indirectly gave them through his hand picked Apostles.

Paul actually fit the requirements laid out in Acts 1:21 because when Jesus showed up on the road to Damascus, it wasn't just small talk. I believe that Jesus told him everything about him. Everything he would need to know to be on par with the original 12-13. Read Galatians 1 & 2. I also believe that during those 3 days of blindness, Jesus & Paul talked a lot. Paul actually knew of Jesus since this Jesus character was always making headlines. He know of Jesus but just hadn't accepted the fact that he was the Messiah. 

This is just a quick answer. If you need more info, keep asking

Here We Go!

I really enjoy blogging, but I don't do enough Bible Study.  Page and I were talking and decided we should combine the blogging and Bible study.  So, here we go!  We are starting with the book of Romans.  Right now, I don't have much of a format or anything for us to follow.  I think it would be good for us just to start reading and write down questions, comments, thoughts, whatever you have.  Let's start with chapter one.  I have read some of it, and two questions jumped out at me:  What is the difference between an apostle and a disciple?  and...How is Jesus considered a descendent of David when it is Joseph who is a descendent of David?  These are some questions that I don't normally like to ask because I don't like to look stupid, so feel free to ask as many questions as you want, no matter how stupid you think they are.  Also, feel free to comment, and if you want to be set up as an author so you can post, just let me know!